[peterhuang913]

Originally Posted by BennyV04988

The thing is, the caps are melting waaay faster than they had predicted, and now the surrounding fresh waters are taking in the sunlight, instead of snow reflecting it. This means that they melt even faster, almost at an exponential rate. This can affect ocean currents, sea level, etc, but will take a long time. The problem is that no one knows where exactly the tipping point is, and how big of an effort it even takes to prevent it.

Basically, the whole world is in denial that there is a problem, because if you accept that this is a threat and will happen if we can't stop it, then the future suddenly doesn't seem so bright... no matter what we do.

yea, life sucks

[Apokalipse]

Originally Posted by BennyV04988

Apok - You talk as if it takes massive changes to create problems.

Sometimes it does.

Originally Posted by BennyV04988

Even then, your idea of a problem is naively and grossly exagerated.

The only exaggerations are what will happen with a few degrees rise. And I base this on what the Earth's history tells us.

Originally Posted by BennyV04988

It only TAKES a few degrees to change the path of ocean heat engines, which control the earths weather patterns, which can cause droughts, floods, hurricanes, etc. This can lead to displacement, famine, disease, economic crash, war, etc.

The geological history tells us otherwise. The Earth has made much, much bigger changes than it's making now.
Even if we only look back a few thousand years, bigger changes have happened. Humans have done fine.

And yes we do need adapt, that's my point.

In what way do we need to change?
Cut down CO2 levels? CO2 has not been demonstrated to be the cause of temperature changes. But in fact, often a result of it.
Secondly, we don't need to change the environment to suit us.
In order to adapt, we don't need to drastically cut CO2 levels. In fact, I doubt changing the CO2 levels is going to do much anyway. There's no evidence that CO2 is causing temperature change.

The changes we make will only need to be subtle, and gradual. And certainly not cause for alarm.

And when the solar activities change in the future (like they always have), temperatures will also change, and will become lower again in the future.

Whether or not we are causing it, the threat is large

Again, history tells us otherwise.

Originally Posted by BennyV04988

Basically, the whole world is in denial that there is a problem

Maybe that's because there really isn't one.

Simply put, there is no established evidence to suggest that:
a) humans are causing the temperature to change
b) the rise in temperature is actually going to cause real problems

If you look at the history, the temperature has always been following a pattern, based on the sun's cycles.
We just happen to be in an uptrend. The same uptrend that's happened many times before, and hasn't wreaked havoc on the life that lives on this planet.

[molsen]

the thing i think is funny is....who decided RIGHT NOW is the right temperature? just because we happen to be living on the earth right now, doesn't mean this is how it SHOULD be. it's incredibly selfish of us to think we should try and alter possible weather patterns because we're afraid they might be different from what we're used to.

[Trotter]

Good point, molsen. I have said basically the same thing many, many times.

[BennyV04988]

Originally Posted by molsen

the thing i think is funny is....who decided RIGHT NOW is the right temperature? just because we happen to be living on the earth right now, doesn't mean this is how it SHOULD be. it's incredibly selfish of us to think we should try and alter possible weather patterns because we're afraid they might be different from what we're used to.

Years and years of data tell us the temperature has changed... that's all that matters. It's changed, drastically, and the ice caps are melting off exponentially. The climate is becoming unstable and more extreme as a result.

Different from what were used to? Like... breathing air and all... instead of water, when our cities are flooded? Yeah, that's pretty selfish.

And so is being stubborn enough to not give a crap about the planet and reduce our effect on it.

[Apokalipse]

Originally Posted by BennyV04988

Years and years of data tell us the temperature has changed... that's all that matters. It's changed, drastically, and the ice caps are melting off exponentially. The climate is becoming unstable and more extreme as a result.

it's changed a few degrees. bigger changes have happened in the past. Much bigger.

Let's just say for a minute that we had no way of measuring temperature. I doubt anybody would even notice that there is a change.

[BennyV04988]

Originally Posted by Apokalipse

it's changed a few degrees. bigger changes have happened in the past. Much bigger.

Let's just say for a minute that we had no way of measuring temperature. I doubt anybody would even notice that there is a change.

I live in Maine, USA and we have generally very very cold winters with mild summers. I have certainly noticed a change.

For the past decade we have been breaking record high temperatures during the winter months, with snowfall starting later and later each season. Maine used to receive 2-3 ft of snow before December... I can't even remember the last time we had snow before January. When winter does kick in, it's nearly February and its starting to screw up the crop seasons. People had crops germinating in December because it was so mild. The wildlife as well are very confused. Trust me, its easy to tell around here.

Also: The ice caps don't care if the temperature has changed only a few degrees now vs more in the past because the fact is that they are melting at an exponential rate. Something big is happening, regardless of whether or not the "temperature difference" is big or small. NRDC: Global Warming Puts the Arctic on Thin Ice

[molsen]

Originally Posted by BennyV04988

Years and years of data tell us the temperature has changed... that's all that matters. It's changed, drastically, and the ice caps are melting off exponentially. The climate is becoming unstable and more extreme as a result.

no that's not all that matters because the climate has made the same shift over and over in our planet's past. we have to be cautious about over-emphasizing our own role in this.

Different from what were used to? Like... breathing air and all... instead of water, when our cities are flooded? Yeah, that's pretty selfish.

but WE are the ones who decided to live on coastlines or in earthquake zones or in below-sea level zones. that is OUR fault. yea it sucks the earth may be changing but to think we OWN this planet and should try to stop that is what's selfish.

And so is being stubborn enough to not give a crap about the planet and reduce our effect on it.

hmmm

first of all, i never said i dont give a crap about the planet. in fact, i've been involved in every environmental debate on this forum and have always had a pro-environment stance. read my column (in my sig) for god's sake before you start calling me stubborn and saying i don't give a crap.

second, i think you confuse stubbornness for open-mindedness. we can't even accurately predict where a hurricane will hit in the next 3 or 4 days and at what strength in one corner of the world. what gives us the GALLS to think we can predict the weather of the entire planet over the next few decades to a century??? on the other hand, what could be the ultimate price of completely ignoring these warnings....?

that being said, we should be EXTREMELY cautious with throwing out all of these scare tactics and end-of-the-world scenarios....it puts A LOT on the line for science and environmentalists. it's like when we were scared into invading Iraq by our gov't....presented with "evidence" and doomsday scenarios, but these reasons turned out to be mostly false and now people don't trust the administration and are suspicious of everything they do.

similarly, if people like you go around calling other people names, acting closed-minded with regards to global warming evidence, throwing out scary scenarios, AND THEN THE GLOBAL WARMING THEORY TURNS OUT TO BE WRONG, not only are you going to feel like a ******, but the entire environmental movement will be OVER. GONE. DECEASED.

we should, however, be striving for a cleaner, more sustainable existence. environmentalists have been trying to get at this for well over a century and NOW people are finally starting to take it seriously.

so be careful, my friend, because in your narrow-minded, gung-ho approach to forcing global warming 'science' on people, you may ultimately be screwing the future of environmentalism. and i, for one, will be VERY angry at you.

[molsen]

in summary, take it easy. be rational. listen to other people's POV. and remember nothing is ever certain, ESPECIALLY weather.

[BennyV04988]

well you called us selfish for trying to do something to prevent a drastic change. If you read my posts I didn't rule out simply preparing for disasters and adapting as a species. You came off as if you were saying "well we should just lay down and die becuase trying to do anything would be wrong."

We choose to live on the coasts because that's what makes this world possible. Water is essential to a society's existence.

I think you're misunderstanding me. My points are this:

1. Things ARE changing. This is a fact. Look it up... anywhere. Caused naturally or not, things are changing. (ie the arctic is vanishing)
2. These things have the potential to radically screw up our little snowglobe.
3. If we are the cause, then we should stop having such a large affect.
4. If we are not the cause, we should still adapt to avoid the repercussions.

Basically, I believe we need to take action because whether or not we are causing it, whether or not its right or wrong to try to fix it, whether or not we should simply avoid the repercussions, this change is happening, and it threatens the safety of millions.

I respect the opinions of others, but someone says "what's the big deal?" I will tell them. People seem to shrug at the idea of global warming because they don't see the big picture. They don't understand the interrelations of ocean currents, wildlife, ozone, radiation, absorption, saturation, etc.