not me...

[pjam76]

I'm glad you are not affected by it. But you keep pushing this 40 percent growth crap.

Same thing was said to kids who went to college in 2000. Yet when they graduated with computer science degrees and no real world experience in 2004, the job market just wasn't there for them.

Stats like you are used to market.

THere will be plenty of computer jobs in the next so many years.
But it's not like it once was.
Software Engineers have to know all about business these days.
The truth is many people go into the computer field because they don't like dealing with the business side of things. Because they don't like communicating with the business people.
That's not the way it works anymore.


Your theory is plain stupid.
"Hey if I'm not affected by it then it doesn't matter."

Yeah people who think like you are the ones who are the first ones crying on the street when something bad does happen to them.

Just because you don't feel the pain doesn't mean it does not exist in the world.

Software Engineering is a decent field to get into.

But it's not like it was during the dot com era. And there are many jobs that are being outsourced or filled by H1B visa workers.

[office politics]

someone hitting post topic instead of post reply?

[Chankama]

Seems rather random...

Unless

Originally posted by csamuels
someone hitting post topic instead of post reply?

is true....

In anycase, IMO software engineering is not an end-career if you want to become successful. If you like tech, obviously, it's a decent place to start in. But after that, you'd better do an MBA and move into management...

I'd hate to be 35+ and still be a coder...

[jaeusm]

But it's not like it was during the dot com era. And there are many jobs that are being outsourced or filled by H1B visa workers.

There are more IT jobs available in the US now than during the dot com era.

Your theory is plain stupid.
"Hey if I'm not affected by it then it doesn't matter."

I'm not sure if that was directed at me, since you're on a tear creating random threads in the forum. The irony here is that the above quoted "plain stupid" theory (one based on anecdotal evidence), is actually the theory you're ascribing to. My position is based on actual data. Your position is based on conjecture.

[jaeusm]

I'd hate to be 35+ and still be a coder...

Why?

[pjam76]

Sorry must've hit topic last night instead of reply.

You are a complete idiot if you think the IT market is better now then it was during the DOT COM era.

You obviously don't have much work experience and look at all these reports that keep pushing what job markest should be popular. It's the same stats that are tyring to get more kids to major in engineering, sciences, and computers.

Like I said stats are nice, but they are what they are, Stats.

Maybe you should play in the real world instead of burying your head in books all the time. Anybody who claims the market now is better then it was during the DOT COM years is a complete moron.

While maybe it's true there are a lot better computer science workers these days then back in the dot com era, the fact was, if you were in computers back then, you made lots of money and almost always had a job.

There were tons of quirky perks and tons of stock options. IT was the thing to do, there were a billion jump on the bandwagon computer tech schools popping up everywhere.

Then the bottom fell out. The stocks crashed. Many companies crashed cause they didn't make a real profit. People were layed off by the thousands. The economy crashed.

Many former IT workers went into other fields because they either didn't like the long hours, couldn't find a job they liked, or were never really good IT workers to begin with.

Nursing and Teaching replaced Computer Science as the "In" thing and needed job.

You can report all your stats you want, the fact is you need to get out in the real world and realize what's really going on before you start claiming it's the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Go check out IT forums, go speak to people who work in IT. Heck maybe you should actually work in IT before making claims. The truth is MANY KIDS are not going into IT because MICROSOFT, ORACLE, SUN, INTEL, CSC and various other consulting firms have been opening offices in India over the past few years and getting rid of thousands and thousands of US and European workers.

The fact is simple math. A Software Engineer who makes 80K in the US would make $8k in India.

Go figure who is going to keep their job.

While Software Engineering is still a great field to get into, like the other poster said, you better not stay at that level or else you probably will be out on the street.

The other issue with you is obvious. You claim any moron can learn programming but it's somebody special who is a Software Engineer.

Do you even know what a Software Engineer does? Do you even know what one is?

It's not some mythical label.

A Software Engineer who has no clue how to program is kind of useless in the long run.

And Why not passed 35..

Because just like most industries these days, it's a YOUTH GONE WILD attitude.

Why would they keep a 36 year old Software Engineer around at top pay and benefits when they can hire some 22 year old fresh out of college at a starters salary and teach them the way they want things done. Heck now they hire H1B Visa's or open up in INdia and soon China.

I've been in IT before the dot com era, during and after and anybody that says the market is better now for IT then it was during the Dot com Era obviously hasn't worked in IT or hasn't worked in it very long.

Remeber back then nobody knew what the web really was.
Now everybody's kid can be a web developer. That's tons of jobs that are not there.

When you say Software Engineer it's not just one little neat package. There are developers, designers, architects, testers, managers, and the list goes on.

You don't just jump off a ship and become a Software Engineer and stay a software engineer. If you do you won't last long.

[raross]

Originally posted by pjam76
Sorry must've hit topic last night instead of reply.

You are a complete idiot if you think the IT market is better now then it was during the DOT COM era.

You obviously don't have much work experience and look at all these reports that keep pushing what job markest should be popular. It's the same stats that are tyring to get more kids to major in engineering, sciences, and computers.

Like I said stats are nice, but they are what they are, Stats.

Maybe you should play in the real world instead of burying your head in books all the time. Anybody who claims the market now is better then it was during the DOT COM years is a complete moron.

While maybe it's true there are a lot better computer science workers these days then back in the dot com era, the fact was, if you were in computers back then, you made lots of money and almost always had a job.

There were tons of quirky perks and tons of stock options. IT was the thing to do, there were a billion jump on the bandwagon computer tech schools popping up everywhere.

Then the bottom fell out. The stocks crashed. Many companies crashed cause they didn't make a real profit. People were layed off by the thousands. The economy crashed.

Many former IT workers went into other fields because they either didn't like the long hours, couldn't find a job they liked, or were never really good IT workers to begin with.

Nursing and Teaching replaced Computer Science as the "In" thing and needed job.

You can report all your stats you want, the fact is you need to get out in the real world and realize what's really going on before you start claiming it's the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Go check out IT forums, go speak to people who work in IT. Heck maybe you should actually work in IT before making claims. The truth is MANY KIDS are not going into IT because MICROSOFT, ORACLE, SUN, INTEL, CSC and various other consulting firms have been opening offices in India over the past few years and getting rid of thousands and thousands of US and European workers.

The fact is simple math. A Software Engineer who makes 80K in the US would make $8k in India.

Go figure who is going to keep their job.

While Software Engineering is still a great field to get into, like the other poster said, you better not stay at that level or else you probably will be out on the street.

The other issue with you is obvious. You claim any moron can learn programming but it's somebody special who is a Software Engineer.

Do you even know what a Software Engineer does? Do you even know what one is?

It's not some mythical label.

A Software Engineer who has no clue how to program is kind of useless in the long run.

And Why not passed 35..

Because just like most industries these days, it's a YOUTH GONE WILD attitude.

Why would they keep a 36 year old Software Engineer around at top pay and benefits when they can hire some 22 year old fresh out of college at a starters salary and teach them the way they want things done. Heck now they hire H1B Visa's or open up in INdia and soon China.

I've been in IT before the dot com era, during and after and anybody that says the market is better now for IT then it was during the Dot com Era obviously hasn't worked in IT or hasn't worked in it very long.

Remeber back then nobody knew what the web really was.
Now everybody's kid can be a web developer. That's tons of jobs that are not there.

When you say Software Engineer it's not just one little neat package. There are developers, designers, architects, testers, managers, and the list goes on.

You don't just jump off a ship and become a Software Engineer and stay a software engineer. If you do you won't last long.

WHAT? Firstly the IT market is 10x better then it was in the dot come bubble. The reason is because in the dot com bubble, a lot of new companies were being started, yes. But now the industry has matured from the bubble and is growing exponentially.

WOW, I am overwhelmed with your stupidity. I will leave the job of correcting you to someone else.

[jaeusm]

You are a complete idiot if you think the IT market is better now then it was during the DOT COM era.

It's not that I think it is, I know it is. The data comes from the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics and the Association for Computing Machinery (ACM). Your position is based on nothing more than anecdotal evidence.

Like I said stats are nice, but they are what they are, Stats.

Stats are based on actual data. You know, real evidence. Your position has no basis.

Maybe you should play in the real world instead of burying your head in books all the time.

???

You can report all your stats you want, the fact is you need to get out in the real world and realize what's really going on before you start claiming it's the greatest thing since sliced bread.

I am in the real world, as I presume you are too. Again, this quote is another indication that your position is based on nothing more than anecdotal evidence.

Go check out IT forums

You're really beginning to discredit yourself now. Yeah, internet forums are known for their accuracy of facts and information. Surely, they're more accurate than the US Bureau of Labor Statistics or the ACM. Then again, I don't believe there is a huge conspiracy taking place to deceive the general population.

While Software Engineering is still a great field to get into, like the other poster said, you better not stay at that level or else you probably will be out on the street.

Ok, fine. I'll bite. Show me your proof.

I've been in IT before the dot com era, during and after and anybody that says the market is better now for IT then it was during the Dot com Era obviously hasn't worked in IT or hasn't worked in it very long.

Right, right. We're in the midst of a huge conspiracy. It's so obvious now, considering the all the "proof" you've provided to support your position.

The only "proof" you've presented so far has been "maybe you should actually work in IT before making claims". I do, and now I'm beginning to feel like I'm in a grade school argument.

The other issue with you is obvious. You claim any moron can learn programming but it's somebody special who is a Software Engineer.

Actually, I didn't say that at all. Are you aware that more than one person has been responding to you?

By the way, here's a link for you. I've posted several on this forum in the past concerning this topic. If you want them, search for them -- though you don't seem to be too interested in actual facts.
http://www.cs.uiuc.edu/news/articles...d=2006Mar3-142

[pjam76]

It's funny that you use stats to back everything you say because you haven't been in the real world.

Well here's some LABOR Stats for you. Go look them up, it's easy to find.

" "about three out of every ten new jobs created in the U.S. economy will be in either the healthcare and social assistance or private educational services sectors," the Bureau of Labor Statistics projects."

3 out of 10 is pretty high don't you think.

Here is more..

Top Jobs 2006 List
Lawyer
Personal financial advisor
Sales manager
Management analyst
Computer and information systems manager
Financial manager
Securities, commodities, and financial services sales agent
Marketing manager
Computer software engineer
Chiropractor
Postsecondary education administrator
Medical scientist
Market research analyst
Dentist
Medical and health services manager
Producers and directors
Financial analyst
Wholesale and manufacturing sales representative
Engineering manager
Advertising and promotions manager
Compensation and benefits manager
Clinical, counseling, and school psychologist
Real estate sales agent
Training and development manager
Public relations manager


Other stats and reports this from Nov 2005.

" More than 53 per cent of Silicon Valley companies surveyed this month reported that they outsource a portion, or all, of their operations, according to the survey by Santa Clara University"

That doesn't pose well for most of the IT market in California.

More reports from one of those job outlook related sites on software engineering.. while much is good to say about it, it also mentions,

"With the software industry beginning to mature, however, and with routine software engineering work being increasingly outsourced overseas, job growth will not be as rapid as during the previous decade. "


and from the iEEE web site,
"
The unemployment problem is even worse for all electrical, electronics, computer and software engineers. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics at the U.S. Department of Labor, unemployment among electrical and electronics engineers reached 7.0% in the first quarter of 2003. 6.5% of all computer hardware engineers and 7.5% of computer software engineers were also unemployed during the same period. These are unprecedented levels for each occupation.

IEEE-USA is concerned that these increases in engineering unemployment may not be a short term, cyclical phenomenon that will correct itself when the economy begins its long anticipated upturn. Instead, current engineering unemployment is the result of much more fundamental structural changes in the U.S. economy that could have very serious, long-term affects — not only on the future viability of engineering as a high-wage/high value added career — but on the nation’s economic and technological competitiveness and the continuing ability of small businesses to be a major driver of innovation and job creation in the United States.

. Global Outsourcing Has Economic, Technological and Security Implications

Traditionally, the United States has been a leader in technological innovation — a major contributor to improvements in productivity, economic growth and personal well-being that took place during the 1990’s. Engineers and scientists at colleges and universities, at businesses of all sizes and at public and private research organizations have long been prime movers in the conversion of scientific discoveries into useful products and services and in technological innovation. A nation’s ability to innovate is at the core of its economic and technological strength. Location matters when it comes to the innovation process because it generates enormous local spillover benefits and feeds on itself. An obvious example is Silicon Valley.

Global outsourcing of high wage/high value added engineering jobs threatens this leadership on a number of fronts.


"
I could care less about these lists or any other statistical lists.

But when the IEEE has tons of reports and worries about outsourcing and the US Engineering market, it's a serious concern for that job market.

It's all find and dandy to use stats because if you want to back up your point you can find any stat you want to back up your point.

AKA plenty of reports and stats back up the point that during the 1990's the IT market was booming. in 2006, you'd be crazy to even claim it was even close.

Remember besides the DOT COM BOOM there was also the y2K flood of work from around 1998-2000.
Companies were scared everything was going to crash. Or wait, maybe you forgot about all those jobs as well.

Don't claim you know what your talking about because you read a couple of books.

I've been in the field, i've been an engineer, a programmer, a tester, a designer, a manager, a lead. And so have so many other people who know 2006 is nothing like 1998. Not for anybody. To say it is just makes you look stupid.

[pjam76]

IEEE-USA president-elect John Steadman warns: "The emphasis on outsourcing to cut costs may help boost quarterly earnings, but it is also putting our nation's long-term economic competitiveness and national security at risk as we give up our technology edge for short-term profits."


want more,

"
If the job growth of the past half-decade is a guide, the forecast of 19 million new jobs is optimistic, to say the least. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics payroll jobs data, from January 2001 - January 2006 the US economy created 1,054,000 net new private sector jobs and 1,039,000 net new government jobs for a total five-year figure of 2,093,000. How does the US Department of Labor get from 2 million jobs in five years to 19 million in ten years?
"

want more,

"
Information technology workers and computer software engineers have been especially heavily hit by offshore jobs outsourcing. During the past five years (Jan 01 - Jan 06), the information sector of the US economy lost 645,000 jobs or 17.4% of its work force. Computer systems design and related lost 116,000 jobs or 8.7% of its work force. Clearly, jobs outsourcing is not creating jobs in computer engineering and information technology. Indeed, jobs outsourcing is not even creating jobs in related fields.

Want more,

"
For the past five years US job growth was limited to these four areas: education and health services, state and local government, leisure and hospitality, financial services. There was no US job growth outside these four areas of domestic nontradable services.

"
Engineering jobs in general are in decline, because the manufacturing sectors that employ engineers are in decline. During the last five years, the US work force lost 1.2 million jobs in the manufacture of machinery, computers, electronics, semiconductors, communication equipment, electrical equipment, motor vehicles and transportation equipment. The BLS payroll job numbers show a total of 70,000 jobs created in all fields of architecture and engineering, including clerical personal, over the past five years. That comes to a mere 14,000 jobs per year (including clerical workers). What is the annual graduating class in engineering and architecture? How is there a shortage of engineers when more graduate than can be employed?
"

"Among the fastest growing occupations (in terms of rate of growth), seven of the ten are in health care and social assistance. The three remaining fields are: network systems and data analysis with 126,000 jobs projected or 12,600 per year; computer software engineering applications with 222,000 jobs projected or 22,200 per year, and computer software engineering systems software with 146,000 jobs projected or 14,600 per year.

Assuming these projections are realized, how many of the computer engineering and network systems jobs will go to Americans? Not many, considering the 65,000 H-1B visas each year (650,000 over the decade) and the loss during the past five years of 761,000 jobs in the information sector and computer systems design and related.

Judging from its ten-year jobs projections, the US Department of Labor does not expect to see any significant high-tech job growth in the US. The knowledge jobs are being outsourced even more rapidly than the manufacturing jobs were. The so-called "new economy" was just another hoax perpetrated on the American people.



There is plenty more. The fact is many jobs change titles. If you stay at a company for four years and don't really move up or down there is a likelihood that your job title will change. So according to your stats there are less of a Developer and now more Engineers just because a company decided to change what job Titles their employees held.

You look at stats that are used to support what the government keeps claiming.

But maybe you should go into the workforce. 2006 is nothing like 1998 for IT workers. Some might like it better because many of those 2 month certified workers are gone, but the reality is the jobs are not there.

Anybody that claims they are doesn't work in IT.