C++ versus Java

[Vormund]

Originally Posted by OnlyCurious

I'm a student right now. And all the internships I've looked at all requires C++. But I would definitely like to learn Java, gives me more to write on my resume. All of the internships I've come across, Java is named under "Desired Skills" rather than "Required Skills". Not only for internships but for jobs as well. I've seen so many jobs like this... that's why I'm so stubborn about C++ being the dominating language. If you look at big companies like apple or microsoft, they list C++ as a MUST, but Java as a PLUS. I just went into these companies just now to confirm this... you can check yourself.

Edit: What languages do you work with? Seems like your in the industry already...

Ah cool...yeah, I haven't had the pleasure of job-hunting yet (thankfully). I'm jus' a student as well working with a full-time internship during the summer and part-time with school.

I get to use Java primarily with the project I'm working with, which is web-related, but also a fair amount of C for the back-end stuff, and I've seen a few things coded with C++, but haven't got the pleasure of dealing with them directly.

It's definitely a fun, fast-paced job. And as far as learning Java...when you know the basics of C++, it's amazingly easy. Especially if you let Eclipse warn you about the obvious problems.

[jaeusm]

C++ owns Java in real-world applications in BIG companies. Java is good to know in real-world applications in SMALL companies.

That's quite an exaggeration. Language use and company size are independent.

Actually, I disagree with you on the college students starting out with Java, there are so many schools that make C++ the fundamentals of computing. Java is an option in most universities.

This was true 10 years ago, but C++ is now offered as the "option" in most universities. This makes sense if you understand the primary goals of university computer science education: to teach object-oriented programming without alot of overhead. C++ requires a more intimate knowledge of the language in order for a developer to be as proficient as he would be in a language like Java.

In the industry there are MORE "scientific and business" (C++)applications than "Web" applications (Java).

In general, that's not true. However, if you live near a military research installation, then that specific area may have more scientific type jobs available. However, in most other places, most jobs are web-development: ASP.NET and J2EE. It's easy to check, just hit the job boards.

If you look at big companies like apple or microsoft, they list C++ as a MUST, but Java as a PLUS.

Well of course, considering the products they make.

[OnlyCurious]

Originally Posted by jaeusm

That's quite an exaggeration. Language use and company size are independent.

Well of course they are independent. I'm "generalizing". It's more of a stereotype, but some sterotypes are true for the most part.

Originally Posted by jaeusm

This was true 10 years ago, but C++ is now offered as the "option" in most universities. This makes sense if you understand the primary goals of university computer science education: to teach object-oriented programming without alot of overhead. C++ requires a more intimate knowledge of the language in order for a developer to be as proficient as he would be in a language like Java.

LOL, where do you live and what universities did you attend? Where did you hear this? I've done quite of bit of research and I've found about 1 in about 6 schools that use Java as a foundation in starting the computer science curriculum. 5 out of 6 all start off with C++. That's pretty much the ratio that I've personally seen through my own research. I live in colorado and I think ALL the universities here start with C++.

Originally Posted by jaeusm

In general, that's not true. However, if you live near a military research installation, then that specific area may have more scientific type jobs available. However, in most other places, most jobs are web-development: ASP.NET and J2EE. It's easy to check, just hit the job boards.

Yes, I live near a military base, and yes I would have to agree with that statement. Military companies (partners w/e) = BIG companies. For example, lockheed martin, raytheon, boeing, northrop gruman, and AF research facilities. Now, these companies are big... including Microsoft, Apple, HP, Computer gaming companies, INTEL, AMD, and so forth. I GUARANTEE you that these employers prefer their candidates to know C++ over Java.

"in most other places"? You mean SMALLER privately owned companies? Yes, I'm sure you'd find more employers with smaller assets to hire people with Java skills. Big companies don't really need Java programmers, they would rather have 10 C++ programmers than 10 Java programmers. All they probably need is 10-15 Java programmers, while demanding 10,000 C++ programmers in big companies.

Big companies that use C++ as a foundation > Big companies that use Java as a foundation.

Lets not be stubborn everyone... I'm seriously trying to convey a realistic view of things.

[OnlyCurious]

Originally Posted by Vormund

Ah cool...yeah, I haven't had the pleasure of job-hunting yet (thankfully). I'm jus' a student as well working with a full-time internship during the summer and part-time with school.

I get to use Java primarily with the project I'm working with, which is web-related, but also a fair amount of C for the back-end stuff, and I've seen a few things coded with C++, but haven't got the pleasure of dealing with them directly.

It's definitely a fun, fast-paced job. And as far as learning Java...when you know the basics of C++, it's amazingly easy. Especially if you let Eclipse warn you about the obvious problems.

Yeah, I'm learning Java on my own right now, until the spring semester comes along. As of now, Java looks like a mix of VB and C++.

[jaeusm]

Big companies don't really need Java programmers

Says who? That's dependent on the type of work they do. I worked for three years at Wright-Patterson AFB as an embedded systems engineer. I can tell you that there were equally as many Java and .NET jobs as C++. Even as an embedded guy, I only used a small amount of C (I never used C++). The majority of code I wrote was in assembly or Java (J2ME for microcontrollers that use the Ajile Systems AJ-100 cpu's that natively execute Java bytecode). Truthfully, at engineering research installations, MatLab is the environment used by most of the engineers.

Also, there are several other large, global companies like Accenture and Robert Half that work mainly with .NET and Java. Even Northrup Grumman, whom you mentioned, has quite a large work force of Java and .NET developers.

I GUARANTEE you that these employers prefer their candidates to know C++ over Java.

Actually, having been in the industry for awhile, I can tell you that these employers prefer their candidates to know how to develop software and write good code, rather than what language they are proficient in.

Yes, I'm sure you'd find more employers with smaller assets to hire people with Java skills. Big companies don't really need Java programmers, they would rather have 10 C++ programmers than 10 Java programmers.

Yes, you've repeated this many times, but you have yet to explain your rationale. Why would a small company hire Java developers?

[OnlyCurious]

Originally Posted by jaeusm

Says who? That's dependent on the type of work they do. I worked for three years at Wright-Patterson AFB as an embedded systems engineer. I can tell you that there were equally as many Java and .NET jobs as C++. Even as an embedded guy, I only used a small amount of C (I never used C++). The majority of code I wrote was in assembly or Java (J2ME for microcontrollers that use the Ajile Systems AJ-100 cpu's that natively execute Java bytecode). Truthfully, at engineering research installations, MatLab is the environment used by most of the engineers.

Also, there are several other large, global companies like Accenture and Robert Half that work mainly with .NET and Java. Even Northrup Grumman, whom you mentioned, has quite a large work force of Java and .NET developers.


Actually, having been in the industry for awhile, I can tell you that these employers prefer their candidates to know how to develop software and write good code, rather than what language they are proficient in.


Yes, you've repeated this many times, but you have yet to explain your rationale. Why would a small company hire Java developers?

WOW, you are so beating around the bush... ROFL!! Obviously, you are a Java fanboy, we can let everyone decide. Anyway, do you understand my point or what?? My point is that C++ is MORE widely used and my points in the previous post stand as they are.

First off, read my posts again. Secondly, look at what you wrote. Ok, great, you worked as a systems engineer and have been in the industry for quite some time. You say you rarely used C++, well, who said you were hired as a C++ systems engineer? Maybe you were hired as one of the few Java systems engineer.

You also said "There are 'several' other large companies that work mainly with .NET and Java. Lets emphasize the word "SEVERAL", not "many", but several. WELL, WHAT WAS MY POINT? I'm trying to say, the "majority" of the large companies work mainly with C++.

Oh, HAHA. Who said anything about writing good code? It's NOT how the employer accomodates to your needs; it's how you, as the employee, accomodates to the employers' needs. If big companies have engineers working on projects in C++, do you think they'll hire you because you are proficient in Java? Their needs, not yours.

You sure you've been in the industry?

I rest my case. Java is getting more popular, but the industry still prefers C++. Maybe in 10 years the story will change. I'm not saying Java sucks, so calm down.

C++ is more widely used, that is my reason for this guy, who wrote this thread, to learn C++ rather than Java. AND ONCE AGAIN, it wouldn't hurt to learn Java on the side.

[jaeusm]

Obviously, you are a Java fanboy

I never use Java in my current job, nor am I a fanboy, but this is exactly the type of logic (or lack thereof) I have been questioning in your own posts. Ironically, this is the pot calling the kettle black.

You say you rarely used C++, well, who said you were hired as a C++ systems engineer?

Now you're showing your lack of exposure in industry. I was hired as an embedded systems engineer, not as a "C++ systems engineer". As such, candidates are expected to have knowledge of low level languages and be able to learn new languages as necessary.

WELL, WHAT WAS MY POINT? I'm trying to say, the "majority" of the large companies work mainly with C++.

Right. You've been repeating that. However, you have yet to back that up with any data other than, "my friend said...". So back to my point, which you have failed to comprehend, defend your assertion.

Oh, HAHA. Who said anything about writing good code?

I did, since you are seemingly unaware of what "Big Companies" look for in candidates. Your knowledge of a language syntax is not nearly as important as knowing how to write good code and develop software.

If big companies have engineers working on projects in C++, do you think they'll hire you because you are proficient in Java?

See above. First, a candidate is expected to be able to learn a new language as required. Second, the world isn't black and white. Most developers and engineers know several different languages. For example, in my current job, I work as a distributed application developer using C#. I had never used .NET or C# prior to this job. However, since I had written a lot of socket code previously, I had quite a good understanding of network programming. The language was irrelevant.

I rest my case. Java is getting more popular, but the industry still prefers C++.

Actually, there are more Java jobs available than C++. Look at the job boards. And Java is not gaining popularity. It has peaked. .NET is the platform that is quickly gaining popularity.

C++ is more widely used, that is my reason for this guy, who wrote this thread, to learn C++ rather than Java. AND ONCE AGAIN, it wouldn't hurt to learn Java on the side.

Knowledge of language syntax isn't nearly as important as you believe for landing a job. However, knowledge of specific application domains is important. If your company develops web services, then you'll want candidates to have an understanding of how to develop web services. If your company develops Windows drivers for hardware, you'll want candidates to be knowledgeable and have experience in driver development. What languages they've used previously are not as important.

[OnlyCurious]

Originally Posted by jaeusm

I never use Java in my current job, nor am I a fanboy, but this is exactly the type of logic (or lack thereof) I have been questioning in your own posts. Ironically, this is the pot calling the kettle black.


Now you're showing your lack of exposure in industry. I was hired as an embedded systems engineer, not as a "C++ systems engineer". As such, candidates are expected to have knowledge of low level languages and be able to learn new languages as necessary.


Right. You've been repeating that. However, you have yet to back that up with any data other than, "my friend said...". So back to my point, which you have failed to comprehend, defend your assertion.


I did, since you are seemingly unaware of what "Big Companies" look for in candidates. Your knowledge of a language syntax is not nearly as important as knowing how to write good code and develop software.


See above. First, a candidate is expected to be able to learn a new language as required. Second, the world isn't black and white. Most developers and engineers know several different languages. For example, in my current job, I work as a distributed application developer using C#. I had never used .NET or C# prior to this job. However, since I had written a lot of socket code previously, I had quite a good understanding of network programming. The language was irrelevant.


Actually, there are more Java jobs available than C++. Look at the job boards. And Java is not gaining popularity. It has peaked. .NET is the platform that is quickly gaining popularity.


Knowledge of language syntax isn't nearly as important as you believe for landing a job. However, knowledge of specific application domains is important. If your company develops web services, then you'll want candidates to have an understanding of how to develop web services. If your company develops Windows drivers for hardware, you'll want candidates to be knowledgeable and have experience in driver development. What languages they've used previously are not as important.

ROFLMAO. There you go again beating around the bush. I already told everyone I was a student, so duh I lack exposure to the industry. If you want to go by personal experience? Well, it's you against a dozen of my friends in the industry. I've seen all the places they worked at and saw MANY software engineers/developers working with C++. Don't you think as a student I would have asked around all these big companies about which language would make me more successful in the industry? 100% of the Software Engineers(I would say about 45 different engineers from different companies) I talked to said C++. Apple, Microsoft, HP, LockHeed, Boeing, even Coors (yeah the beer company), Northrop Gruman, Dish, Raytheon, and a few I left out, ALL of the employers preferred and REQUIRED their candidates to know C++. You don't have to actually be in the industry to know what employers want from their candidates.

Embedded systems engineer, sure... you're obviously working for a company that uses Java. Try going into the companies I named above with just knowing Java. You'll have a WAY bigger chance of getting into those brand name companies with the knowledge of C++.

Since you cannot comprehend what I'm saying... here is my question to you that can settle this matter(if you can let go of your pride): There are MORE big companies that use C++ as their foundation than big companies that use Java as their foundation, right?

If you say "NO", then you are beating around the bush again. For crying out loud, EVERYONE knows big companies prefer C++. You're not providing any data yourself, except "I 'have been' a embedded systems engineer..." LOL.

It's actually hard for me to believe anything you are saying. If I had a career, I know for a fact I wouldn't waste my time on some forum with a college student about whether C++ or Java is more widely used in big companies.

Oh, and you keep saying there are MORE java jobs in those job search?? LOL what was my point?? Those are all SMALL companies. Give me a good list of REQUIRED Java Candidates for BIG companies, and I Guarantee you I will beat that list from the same BIG companies that require C++.

You really don't need data to know what I'm trying to prove, it's out there in the industry, you've obviously started off in a smaller company that use Java more than C++ and you've been tainted with this.

[OnlyCurious]

Ah, I'm sure people reading this post can conclude for themselves that C++ is more widely used in BIG companies.

Jaeusm, be humble man, I think everyone reading this thread is laughing their asses of because of the way you respond to my posts. You seem so oblivious to my comments. If you don't think so, read through the thread and you'll see. You're ignoring some things I say, being a hypocrite without knowing it, and etc. You have that pride thing going on... you're trying to refute little statements I make (in a sly way) without admitting to the WHOLE POINT I'm trying to make.

My point is that there more big companies that use C++ as their foundation than big companies that use Java as their foundation. I said this numerous amount of times... don't try to refute the other things on the side, if you disagree with my main point above, then say something about that. You just keep saying there are more Java jobs on the "job boards", and I already responded to that.

[Vormund]

Originally Posted by OnlyCurious

Ah, I'm sure people reading this post can conclude for themselves that C++ is more widely used in BIG companies.

Jaeusm, be humble man, I think everyone reading this thread is laughing their asses of because of the way you respond to my posts. You seem so oblivious to my comments. If you don't think so, read through the thread and you'll see. You're ignoring some things I say, being a hypocrite without knowing it, and etc. You have that pride thing going on... you're trying to refute little statements I make (in a sly way) without admitting to the WHOLE POINT I'm trying to make.

My point is that there more big companies that use C++ as their foundation than big companies that use Java as their foundation. I said this numerous amount of times... don't try to refute the other things on the side, if you disagree with my main point above, then say something about that. You just keep saying there are more Java jobs on the "job boards", and I already responded to that.

I've concluded that to be the ultimate coder, at a minimum, you need to have an understanding of Java, C, C++, and .NET. And of those, I need to play with .NET, I don't want to be left behind! The other three, I'm good for.

For learning purposes, between Java and C++, Java is the way to go strictly for the support and...well, those who have used both Java and C++, they know this: Java is a bit more friendly overall.

I for one, enjoy(ed) the friendly argument.

It would be interesting though, to see...(impossible, I know)...but, the numbers for each type of programmer, based on what they use most, as in the industry, you'll never get away with just one. It'd be funny if C won. Too bad those numbers don't exist and there's no real way to collect them.