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Search Tech-Forums - link takes you to our Forum's search page. Note: The following is only a text archive! To view the actual forum discussion, please visit our website at http://www.tech-forums.net Pages:1 the real power of xbox360?(Click here to view the original thread with full colors/images)Posted by: headoncollision I ended up getting in an arguement with someone about the "power of the new xbox" in comparison to today's computers. He claimed that the xbox 360 was more powerful than any PC on the market, and when I clearly pointed out that he was incorrect, he said he'd been computer programming for years and knew more than I did. I won't disagree that the Xbox 360 can man-handle current PC games, but why would someone claim that an xbox 360 could show up a PC? I'd think that even a fairly new emachine with a decent graphics card could show up an xbox. Am I missing out on something? or are consoles actually showing up PCs? Posted by: nitestick do you actually know whats in the xbox360? look up the specs Posted by: owenma435 even though xbox 360 is amazing, its still not as powerful as the PC. You can check out the 360's specs [URL=http://www.engadget.com/2005/03/08/xbox-2-xbox-360-specs-revealed/]here[/URL] Posted by: killians45 Actually, yes the 360 is currently more powerful. Do a search for other various posts and read some of the indepth explanations. I'm not going to post it again, though. You'll have to search yourself ;) Posted by: Beefcake Well the 360's GPU is an underclocked X1900XT/X (3xx mhz core and 700mhz memory vs. PC X1900XTX 650mhz core and 1550mhz memory), but the CPU is very powerful. Oblivion has already shown us that a PC can max it out easilly with high-end cards (it also has better graphics becuase you can edit the ini. file to include things like water reflects all objects and people, not just the land scape) but it can't have HDR with AA on at the same time (probably a software issue). I will have to say we need to wait more to see how the 360 and a high-end PC handles games before we can have a conclusion. Posted by: MichiyoYoshiku The XBOX 360 is basically a Mac G5 Posted by: nitestick are you on crack. last i checked a G5 had a G5 processor not a custom triple core from IBM Posted by: adam06 u cant really compare the 360 to another computer, but there is no way that its better than a top PC and that guy u was arguing with is a idiot u shud punch him 4 being so dumb Posted by: Atrusthegod The 360 will be better than any top end pc's for a few months, but as always, it becomes not as good when they release new graphics cards out every month for no reason. Posted by: killians45 XBox 360 as of now beats PC, but like atrusthegod said soon there will be higher end PC cards that will make the PC more powerful. I dont think it will be as quick as a few months, but it will happen. Remember that consoles are powerful in the fact that it takes awhile to optimize the code. The GPU is not really a underclocked X1900XT/X because the architecture is not available and not in production yet for any other card manufacturer (with unified shading and procedural synthesis). This makes the GPU a beast of its own and not directly comparable. Posted by: Atrusthegod Exactly what he said :p Posted by: SomeIranianKid yeah but the 360 costs 400 dollars while a monster gaming PC can cost upwards of 2000 many people forget that when it comes to the 360 vs. PC arguments Posted by: cyrax IMO, 360 beat the PC at the moment. It costs less, give nearly the same or better performance as a high-end computer, and you can have four people playing on one machine. In terms of gaming only though. When it comes to internet surfing, and word processing, a PC obviously wins. Posted by: DefragMyHead I think the problem that arises in these debates is that there is a "failure" to communicate. These people, I think, are seldom arguing this with the same parameters in mind. I think generally when people say a console is "more powerful" than a pc they are strictly talking about graphical capabilities for games (cuz thats what consoles do, play games). So generally speaking, at this time, I think the 360 has the edge. Posted by: bogus yea i thought that its dx10 compatible, well like semi dx10 Posted by: killians45 it uses dx9, but a *******ized version of it. Kind of supped up, so it has some of the enhancements of dx10 HOWEVER, it is not dx10, especially since no cards that support dx10 are even out yet. Posted by: aaronkupen An Xbox360 is definately not better than a top of the line PC out now. It just isn't. Posted by: Atrusthegod I think people are in denial. No computer out has 3 separate cpu's clocked at 3.2ghz each like the xbox does. When it came out, yes it was more powerful than ANY top of the line pc. Believe it or not its your choice. Now, about 6 - 7 months later, maybe just maybe its about as powerful as a top of the line pc out NOW. Give it another year or so and it will be just as good if not almost as good. Again, what computer runs 3 separate processors? I cant think of any sorry. Now if your talking about the retards that spend 4 grand on a computer then its probably not as powerful as those. But I'd have to say that its definately the same if not better than a computer that you spend around upwards of a thousand. Posted by: talldude123 If you were gonna buy a PC with the specs of the XB360, you would be paying 3 times as much. Posted by: aaronkupen I never said price was an issue, the fact is that you could potentially build a PC more powerful than the Xbox360. There was never initially a price range in this arguement. Posted by: Atrusthegod Yet, price IS an issue. The more you spend on parts, the better parts you have. If your only going to spend say 140 on a processor your only going to get something mediocre. But if you spend say 400 on a processor, your going to get the latest technology. To build a top of the line pc, you need ALL the latest technology. So in other words, even though price was never mentioned, its still a huge factor. Posted by: aaronkupen Again, that was not the point of this thread. If you wanted to say its the most powerful system at its cost then fine, but to say its more powerful than even high end pc's is a false statement. Posted by: killians45 No, its not a false statement. The reason being is that developers have NOT had a chance to fully utilize the 360's advanced chipset. Pointing out games like Oblivion comparisons on a very high end PC shows nothing, because the developement for this architecture is VERY new. ****, the direct L2 cache instruction handling has yet to be exploited, the environmental dynimc via the graphics GPU and its procedural synthesis has barely been exploited (a small amount via Oblivion), the streaming object and texture between the GPU, memory and CPU (for lack of better word as I've forgot what its called), and a host of others. So, NO, its imposible to say they are more powerful and be all accounts, the technical specs on the hardware IS more powerful on the 360 (unless you want to include parallel computing), its just software designers know how to eak a computer for all its worth as the instuction set at its very basic core has changed very little. The instruction sets for the 360 is very different and with multi cores and direct instruction writing to the L2, it makes programming a nightmare for ALL next generation consoles with maybe the exception of the Wii. Posted by: Athlon [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by owenma435 [/i] [B]even though xbox 360 is amazing, its still not as powerful as the PC. You can check out the 360's specs [URL=http://www.engadget.com/2005/03/08/xbox-2-xbox-360-specs-revealed/]here[/URL] [/B][/QUOTE] Im sorry that i only got to the second reply without reading the rest but... how can you say that? you say it's not as powerful as "the" PC asif every PC is the same. The xbox 360 has 3 proccessors all running at 3GHz, i would like to see a PC with that. Even 256mb of ram is nearly the average in all PCs these days. All i can say is the the Xbox 360 is much powerful than the average PC today. Sure the PC is easy to upgrade etc and maybe there will be a more powerful one soon but right now? XBOX 360 FTW :p Posted by: colby stop comparing prices this is a stupid thread no1 gives a ****. Posted by: aaronkupen Well apparently all the people posting in here care, and also colby why are you so hostile in your posts about consoles? Posted by: killians45 agreed, apparently you care colby... anyhow, lets face it. Until the 360, PS3, and Wii have all the power squeeked out of it and pushed to its limits, there is no telling... as of right now, it isn't being fully utilized because of the way it has to be coded. Thats the problem, the hardware potential is amazing, the architecture unique, so the comparison is hard, but technically its potential is just amazing. Now, programming for it.. eww, I'd hate to deal with that head ache. I hate the programming I have to do now at work! Posted by: colby why would i care which is faster? im not gona visit google on my 360, im not gona do a paper in my 360, and im not gona go to school and be like 0mgz dud3 my 360 is f@st3r th3n y0ur c0mput3r lik3 omg0zzz 0wn3d... Posted by: aaronkupen If you don't care then don't post on this topic... it's as simple as that. It's bad manners to go on threads and criticize why the thread was started or the concept behind it. Posted by: killians45 ah, I see why now. He's 15 and is a genius. I bow to your great wisdom and how you generously share it to those less worthy. I am but a lowly system engineer, with only years and years of experience in this worthless 34 year old body, show me thine 15 year old wisdom and hold not ye back from the massess! Lo and behold! Colby comes from the sky, the truth and flames of wisdom lick from his mouth. Who are we, the destitute, to question such atrocities of thine making? Hath not ye created from nothing the coldness and despair, hath not ye shown us the way and the feel of lonliness and utter desolation? Bow down yon creatures of ineptitude for tho he is nothing more an invalid, the great and righteous Colby hath spoken. Let not your worried minds be troubled, for the great waste of sperm has all answers you seek... also frakensence and mier.... j/k seriously though, the arguement is NOT that you can do other things with a PC. Yes, that IS true. We are not talking the media but the power. Nothing more. Posted by: colby good u better fuicking bow to my great wisdom. and while your down there on your knees bowing you can save your self a trip later on and blow me. Posted by: aaronkupen Jeeez, like I asked before... why are you so hostile man? I've had a lot of disagreements with Killian before but I repesct that guy, he knows a lot. Posted by: killians45 lol, it was sarcasm! calm down colby ;) Coming in here with a high and mighty attitude with all guns blazing is not the way to sway people, all you will accomplish is ostracizing yourself from others. However, guess its better blowing so we can stop the gene pool before it spreads. Man, trying so hard not to flame..... must.... not.... start... flame war..... Posted by: timmer I say 360 cause it is less of a hassle to connect your pc to ur 42in HD TV. And personally i have never seen better graphics than Ghost recon for instance until it came out for Xbox360. I played oblivion on PC thought it was alright graphics nothing special but alls i ask for in graphics is that they are crisp and clean not edgy and crap like that but i say as of now it is 360 because of HD and bigger screen but yet PC will soon enought Prevail but with a very hight price! Posted by: updawg Apparently you guys haven't heard of coolarer at xtremesystems forums, he has a kentsfield quadcore clocked at 3ghz at each core paired with an 7950x2 gpu... sorry xbox is not more powerful. In comparison with price theres no doubt xbox wins but the point is PC's > console systems. Posted by: aaronkupen Thank you updawg, that was my point. The initial argument had nothing to do with best bang for the buck or which one people THINK is better. Posted by: P.P. Mguire Not to mention id like to see an crapbox 360 play a game at 1600x1200 res and get frames of 50 and upward. (I saw it on GRAW on a Conroe system at CPL). Or better yet like my machine 1900x1220. No Xbox can do that, period. Idc what triple core ******** it has. Posted by: NathanM [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Atrusthegod [/i] [B]Again, what computer runs 3 separate processors? I cant think of any sorry. [/B][/QUOTE] Technically, servers can run many more :). Posted by: Atrusthegod The human eye can only detect on average of 30fps... Posted by: StylinGolfShoes could u take a 360 apart and use the parts in a computer Posted by: Atrusthegod As far as i know... no. The parts inside the 360 are proprietary (sp?) to the 360's design. Sorry bud. Besides, what would you want to put them into a computer for? The games that are made for the 360 are almost always made for Pc as well. Theres no point. Posted by: StylinGolfShoes it would be really fast Posted by: LU4sTrooper 1st things 1st, the xbox 360 does not have 3 processors running at 3.2ghz, it has 1 processor with 3 cores running at 3.2ghz, typical error made by the console gamer. 2. Money put aside, a high-end PC will obliterate the xbox 360 in terms of performance, and I mean literally tear it apart, and direct x 10 cards aren't even out yet.... you console fan boys can quote triple cores blah blah blah, but it's a well known fact that multi-core CPU's are not overly benificial to gaming performance, as say cache memory, or clock-speed. I could bet my life that a mid range Intel Conroe Dual Core Processor would benefit more to gaming performance. [QUOTE]Even 256mb of ram is nearly the average in all PCs these days.[/QUOTE] Erm what self respecting PC owner would be caught dead with 256mb of RAM, even 512mb is becoming outdated, 1gig is comfortable for light gaming, and 2 gigs is the enthusiast's choice. 3. To get the full potential from the xbox 360, you're gonna need a decent HDTV, and they aint cheap, so stop going on about how the xbox is the cheaper option. 4. The PC is a constantly updating medium, bettering itself day by day, the xbox 360 will stay as it is, compare a high-end PC this time next year to the xbox 360, the xbox will look very old hat. 5. The xbox 360 is struggling already, I have seen some games (oblivion in particular) suffer from poor frame rates, particularly in high-def modes, not good at all. And for the record, I own an Xbox 360, and also a custom built PC, but I'm sick of people making statements that simply aren't true! :P Posted by: killians45 Okay, few things to point out here.... [B] 1st things 1st, the xbox 360 does not have 3 processors running at 3.2ghz, it has 1 processor with 3 cores running at 3.2ghz, typical error made by the console gamer. [/B] Agreed, on this point... [B] 2. Money put aside, a high-end PC will obliterate the xbox 360 in terms of performance, and I mean literally tear it apart, and direct x 10 cards aren't even out yet.... you console fan boys can quote triple cores blah blah blah, but it's a well known fact that multi-core CPU's are not overly benificial to gaming performance, as say cache memory, or clock-speed. I could bet my life that a mid range Intel Conroe Dual Core Processor would benefit more to gaming performance. [/B] Um... no, on all parts here. The reason that multi core CPU's are not beneficial is because the game designers DO NOT OPTIMIZE CODE FOR IT on a PC. There is a huge difference, however, with a console as there is not a change from platform to platform, but a constant hardware schemata to program for. This ultimately means the developers can concentrate on the hardware and not on the difference from machine to machine. Also realize, the code being written for the 360 is no where NEAR optimized yet, as it takes developers time to fully thresh out the system. Now, the architecture on a 360 is vastly (maybe not as much as the PS3) different then previous consoles and PC's. Dont believe me? Look up the technology for it's procedural synthesis as well as unified shading technology... look at the relations of direct read/write on the cache straight from the GPU bypassing the main proc. So, if you want to tell me that the PC is far superior, then I ask you one thing. Show me how you tested each unique new architecture, the bench marks, and how you were able to optimize and squeeze out every performance enhancement it has. You can't, because nobody has yet. There is alot of new coding methods involved here, and it takes time to learn the tricks. Remember when nintendo came out and it was fun at first, graphics got outdated then... next thing you know... BAM, donkey kong country. That was from code optimization. So, to sum it up there is NO way of knowing as of now the comparison between the two unless you have some super secret government info that no one else is privy to, then know one knows this information yet. You can speculate, and of course I know your speculation and I respectfully disagree. You must read some indepth tech notes on it to fully understand why. Now to continue... [B] quote:Even 256mb of ram is nearly the average in all PCs these days. Erm what self respecting PC owner would be caught dead with 256mb of RAM, even 512mb is becoming outdated, 1gig is comfortable for light gaming, and 2 gigs is the enthusiast's choice. [/B] Don't know where that quote came from, but that is no way near the average so agree there as well... [B] 3. To get the full potential from the xbox 360, you're gonna need a decent HDTV, and they aint cheap, so stop going on about how the xbox is the cheaper option.[/B] That is true, however it looks good on a normal tv as well. I had HDTV before the 360 anyhow for NORMAL tv watching. Just an added perk. [B] 4. The PC is a constantly updating medium, bettering itself day by day, the xbox 360 will stay as it is, compare a high-end PC this time next year to the xbox 360, the xbox will look very old hat.[/B] Again, see the long post above all about optimizing code. I wont go more into this unless you want me to.[B] 5. The xbox 360 is struggling already, I have seen some games (oblivion in particular) suffer from poor frame rates, particularly in high-def modes, not good at all.[/B] Um, no, no, no. Oblivion did NOT suffer from poor frame rates. The problem was with thrashing. When they wrote Oblivion, a problem arose that many people noticed. This was NOT frame rates, it was actually a problem, especially when on horse back, of having to load screen on a constant basis. This was poor programming decisions. Don't get me wrong, those guys can write circles around me in code, I'm not a high level developer, but know enough. Now, as far as the HDTV comment and frame rates you mentioned? Unless you have a defective XBox, that is utterly wrong. The framerates are locked by certain standards AND the HDTV scales are handles not via the GPU, software, and/or proc but by a special chipset. This means that going from a normal TV to say 720p in NO WAY hinders performance. Don't believe me? Again, look at the technical specs (not a quick sheet, but try arstechnica- very indepth, but not for the novice) So, high def is no problem.[B] And for the record, I own an Xbox 360, and also a custom built PC, but I'm sick of people making statements that simply aren't true! :P [/B] Final word here. This is like comparing apples to oranges. Keep in mind these are first generation games on this console, which use very little of the consoles full potential. Get some indepth info on the 360, its a very interesting architecture... then you may also see why I tell people who say the 360 is just a PC that they are VERY erroneous. Posted by: Beefcake What's with this "you need a HDTV to enjoy your 360". I've been playing regular 640x480 and it looks awsome to me. I mean ofcourse HD is nice but it isn't worth $xxxx. Posted by: Snake-Eyes [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Atrusthegod [/i] [B]I think people are in denial. No computer out has 3 separate cpu's clocked at 3.2ghz each like the xbox does. [/B][/QUOTE] No desktop computer, sure, but apparently people don't know about the server boards that DO have 3 separate CPUs at 3.2GHz each. Not to mention the fact that those 3 separate CPUs would have more L1 cache than the 360's, and they would not have a shared L2 cache. Posted by: Trifid [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by LU4sTrooper [/i] [B] 3. To get the full potential from the xbox 360, you're gonna need a decent HDTV, and they aint cheap, so stop going on about how the xbox is the cheaper option. [/B][/QUOTE] OR a PC monitor that anyone a bit hard up who wants HD can easily get their hands on. Posted by: Metr01973 I have a 360 and a PC. I play racing games, third person shooters, sport games etc on my 360 but for FPS you cannot beat a PC. Not for frame rates or which processor is faster but because a FPS just feels right on PC with a keyboard and mouse. My PC is in my sig and I recently downloaded the just cause demo on 360 and PC. They look identical but it just felt right on 360 but when HL2:Episode 2 comes out for 360 and PC I just can't see myself playing it on 360. So the reason I've got both machines is that I get the best of both worlds. I think that in some games the 360 has the edge and other the PC wins hands down. For me they compliment each other. Posted by: bonehelm [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Beefcake [/i] [B]What's with this "you need a HDTV to enjoy your 360". I've been playing regular 640x480 and it looks awsome to me. I mean ofcourse HD is nice but it isn't worth $xxxx. [/B][/QUOTE] Good to know you have low standards, buddy. Posted by: xlargebuddha Why even bother arguing with a person like this. I know its hard not to get caught up in an argument knowing your right but letting it go is the best thing. Heh. Posted by: n30phYte bump? ;) Posted by: sprtnbsblplya I would think this, [url]http://www.apple.com/macpro/[/url] , with quad cores would have more computing power than the 360, and if it had the highest graphics card available, the X1900XT or the Quadro FX 4500, it would probably smoke the 360. But at $5k??? No friggin way. Posted by: killians45 As I've pointed out before, much of this has to do with the 360's ARCHITECTURE. How the cache and rendering is handled, which is not in anyway similar to the way a PC does it (procedural synthesis would be one thing to look up). Posted by: n30phYte the real power of the the 360 lies in it's [B]price[/B]. that much power for only $300 or $400 bucks for the hardware? pfft. not many pc's can touch those specs @ $300. i'm a 360 owner and i also game on my pc. just throwing my opinion into the mix. :D Posted by: killians45 agreed, but to many people look at the proc and the GPU, and not enough attention is paid to the architecture which is what REALLY makes this thing get up and go. I've said all along it will take a very long time to fully exploit this machine, and the main reason behind that is because of the odd and powerful architecture. There are documents abound that explain all of this, however it is very advanced reading so those who are interested, take a look. I found a real helpful write up on arstechnica... I posted the link some time ago in this forum if any one is interested. It goes into what I mentioned as well as a many others, like the cache system, unified shaders, the instruction sets, etc. Posted by: spartan1121 Look at first gen games on the xbox. Halo CE looked pretty good at the time, but that didn't puch the limits. It took another 3 years, the launch of halo2, before a game would actually push the limits of the xbox. The GPU on the 360 isn't an underclocked x1950xtx, it's a custom card made only for the 360, with it's own architecture. It's an r580(i think) the precurser to the r600's. My 360 runs games better than the computer that i just spent 1k on. The 360 is a better platform for gaming, unless you go out the wazoo and spend more than like 2500 on a system. Posted by: TheOtis Of course your 360 is going to run games better then your PC. You have a X850XT haha. Posted by: Athlon To get HD out of my 360 i just use my PC monitor with an Xbox 360 VGA Cable - It's great! vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2003, Jelsoft Enterprises Limited. PPC Management vB Easy Archive Final - Created by Xenon |